CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Roswell Truth Debated
Aired July 4, 2008 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT.
LARRY KING, HOST (voice over): Tonight: The Roswell incident, top secret no more. The evidence is in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS J. CAREY, AUTHOR & ROSWELL INVESTIGATOR: We have hundreds of witnesses that have told us of an extraterrestrial event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Did a UFO crash in New Mexico 61 years ago and did our government cover it up? The questions are finally answered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKIE ROWE, SAYS ALIEN "SPOKE" TO DAD: This little person communicated they've been watching us for a long time. And he said they're not here to hurt us, not to be afraid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Witnesses ordered to lie about alien invaders. And now they have their say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seeing a large disk-shaped craft which was following our airplane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You won't believe what they've seen, right now on LARRY KING LIVE.
(on camera): On July 8th, 1947, Colonel William H. Blanchard, commanding officer of the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell Army Air Field released a press statement that a flying saucer had crashed near Roswell and that the Army had recovered the disk within hours. A second press release was issued, claiming that it was nothing more than a weather balloon.
Let's meet our guests in Milwaukee, Don Schmitt. He is co-author of, "Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up." It's one of Don's bestselling books, became the TV movie "Roswell."
At Building 84 in Roswell, Thomas J. Carey, co-author of, "Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up," he spent 16 years investigating all of this. Also at Building 84 is Earl Fulford, a staff sergeant stationed at what was the army field in 1947. He took part in what he calls the top secret retrieval of Roswell debris.
And here in Los Angeles, Jan Rooney, the actress, singer, wife of the great Mickey Rooney, her father, John Chamberlin (ph), was an Air Force colonel who traveled to New Mexico at the time of the incident, years later told her that there were documented files regarding UFOs that the government will never make them public, at least in our lifetime.
Tell us about your father, Jan. What type of man was he? Were you surprised by what he said?
JAN ROONEY, SAYS MILITARY DAD KNEW SECRETS: I was very surprised. My father was a highly respected man in his field. He -- it warms my heart to think about him, because he was in top secret and he actually was unable to tell my sister, my mother and myself about what he was doing.
KING: How did he finally bring it up?
ROONEY: We were at the dining room table one evening, and someone asked, "Tell me, Red (ph), as they called him, are there such a thing as UFOs?" And he said, he had to think for a minute and he said, "the best way to put it," without revealing anything, he said, "Actually, there are documented facts about UFOs, but we will never in our lifetime," as you've said, ever - "They will never be revealed, because of panic risk, mass panic."
KING: Do you think there would be mass panic?
ROONEY: I think for sure. Someone were...
KING: You do?
ROONEY: I absolutely do.
KING: He traveled to New Mexico, your father, right?
ROONEY: Yes, White Sands, New Mexico, and he went back to Wright- Patterson. I think it was Colonel Blanchard that asked him personally to go back during that time.
KING: Don Schmitt in Milwaukee. A cover-up, you're the co-author of "Witness to Roswell," why if true, Jan says panic. Do you believe panic?
DON SCHMITT, AUTHOR & ROSWELL INVESTIGATOR: Well, I always go back to the very incident itself. Let's look back to the very people who were involved. There was no panic. There was no mass suicide. These people all lived out their lives and worked their jobs and raised their families.
I'd hate to think that we've digressed over the past 61 years, to the point that this would be such a shock, not only to our very psyche and our very culture, that there would be such an overreaction. I think we're ready. I certainly know that they handled it the best they could back in '47. And it would be a tremendous tragedy after all this time that we wouldn't bring the information out.
KING: Why, Thomas Carey, why now? We've been hearing about Roswell for years, and everyone says the government covers it up. It's going to be released, the files will be released. Why now?
CAREY: Well, Larry, we hold no brief from the government. Don Schmitt and I are conducting our investigation on the belief that the government will never release this information. In 1947, there was ample reason for them to cover up the incident. The Cold War was just beginning. The Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast which set the East coast in the panic, was still in memory.
But as Don says, we are much more accepting today with the knowledge we have now of the universe, other planets being found almost daily. We are ready, certainly ready for it. And the situation that attended in 1947 does not attend today. So, you know, I think, definitely, we are ready for release.
KING: Earl Fulford, now, you were there, you removed the debris from the wreckage. Will you tell me what it was like?
SGT. EARL FULFORD, MEMBER, UFO RECOVERY TEAM: It was similar in appearance to aluminum foil, like new aluminum foil which had never been crumpled.
KING: Jan, had your father described any of this to you?
ROONEY: No, he actually, as I said, he was in top secret, so he wouldn't be able to reveal anything to any of our family.
KING: Even at his death?
ROONEY: Even at his death. My dad had a heart attack and I was nowhere around at that time unfortunately.
KING: Didn't you question more fully when he admitted to having, to believing this? I would have gone nuts.
ROONEY: Of course. Yes, but I was a bit younger then. And I hadn't really thought about all this. I didn't know that this was all science fiction or what. It wasn't until I got older and dad was already gone when I really took hold of this idea and really wanted to investigate. And it's too late now.
KING: So, you believe in aliens, travel from outer space?
ROONEY: Yes, I do.
KING: The whole shebang?
ROONEY: Yes, the whole shebang.
KING: We'll be back. Jan Rooney will remain us. Don Schmitt will, so will Tom Carey. And we'll be joined by Carlene Green in an incredible deathbed confession story. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OUT OF THE BLUE", COURTESY JAMES FOX)
ANNOUNCER: The American Broadcasting Company and affiliated stations today's headline edition with Peter Grant (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 509th Atomic Bomb Group headquartered at Roswell, New Mexico, reports that it has received one of the disks, which landed on a ranch outside Roswell. Colonel William Blanchard of the Roswell airbase refuses to give details of what the flying disk looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Joining us now at Building 84 in Roswell, our panel is joined by Carlene Green. Her father was stationed at what was the Roswell Army Field in '47, a decorated soldier, highest military clearance. He fought in three wars. He never spoke to anyone about the incident until a week before he died when he broke his silence to Carlene.
And what did he tell you, Carlene?
CARLENE GREEN, SAYS FATHER SAW ALIEN BODIES: Well, what he told me, Larry, he said, "Don't let anybody tell you that the incident at Roswell did not happen." He said it did happen. "I was there. I saw the spacecraft. And I saw the graves."
KING: Why did he think that they kept it a secret?
GREEN: That he never told me. He never discussed it. He never uttered a word about it. Until just before -- they put him on the gurney to put him in the ambulance, and sent him to El Paso.
KING: Why did he not talk about it?
GREEN: That, I don't know, other than the fact that -- with the incident, when it happened, that they were told, don't talk about it, it didn't happen. It was a weather balloon.
KING: So, he completely dismissed that to you?
GREEN: Yes, he did. He never mentioned anything else to me. He never said anything else to me.
KING: Did you ever doubt your father, what type of soldier was he?
GREEN: I never doubted him for a moment. He was an honest man. He loved his country, and he loved his family. When the military told him to do something, he did it. He never questioned it.
KING: Jan Rooney, did you ever doubt your father?
ROONEY: Never. My father was a very honest, hard-working man, very responsible, dependable individual, and a no nonsense kind of guy. And what he says goes.
KING: So, he would never say a fantasy thing?
ROONEY: No. No, never.
KING: And back to the original Don Schmitt, what are they hiding?
SCHMITT: Well, I think they're hiding, first of all, the fact that they did not provide many of the -- especially, civilian witnesses with due process. The fact that they threatened these people, that they went into their homes, and actually threatened physical violence if they should ever talk about this, it's hardly...
KING: But that was years ago. They're not going to do that now, would they?
SCHMITT: No. In fact, it's one of the reasons that we encouraged the witnesses to come forward. Because, after all, the official explanation after now 61 years, is still that, that this is nothing more than a weather balloon. So, in other words, that's forced their hand. Let's see how they retaliate.
We still have reluctant witnesses who are still very afraid to talk, fear of loss of pension, and benefits, fear of imprisonment if they speak about this. This was a sacred oath, an oath to the Constitution that they made back in 1947 -- part of that World War II generation, and you know, they keep their word, they certainly do.
KING: Thomas Carey, do you have any doubts the other way? Do you ever think that maybe you're wrong?
CAREY: At this point, Larry, no. We've interviewed so many witnesses. We have hundreds of witnesses that have told us of an extraterrestrial event. I can tell you and your audience tonight that none of them have told us about a weather balloon.
KING: Do you think, Jan, we will ever really learn the truth? I mean, do you think the government will ever come forward and say, "All the people on your show, they're right"?
ROONEY: I think at some point they will have to, because of the overwhelming evidence. They can't keep it a secret forever. How long can they go?
KING: Will it take, do you think, Carlene, somebody in the Pentagon? Who's going to announce this?
GREEN: That, I don't know. But, eventually, it will come out.
KING: Do you firmly believe -- in this lifetime?
GREEN: In my lifetime, yes.
KING: Because, Jan, we've been hearing this for years.
ROONEY: That's right. KING: And it's coming out tomorrow. It's coming out next week. It never comes out.
ROONEY: It never comes out, I know. But somebody has to do something.
KING: Don Schmitt, do you think it's going to come out in your lifetime?
SCHMITT: We've been hearing for years about this growing faction within the military that certainly would like it to come out. And as evidenced by the fact that the government is now up to their fourth official explanation regarding this incident, I've become more and more doubtful. I think it becomes all the more incumbent on us, as investigators, to still track down every surviving, every living witness, and get them to go on the record.
KING: We're going to get to break. We'll come right back to you. Thank you, Jan. Thanks very much.
ROONEY: Thank you very much, Larry.
KING: Thank you, Carlene.
Someone who witnessed the UFO wreckage first hand, plus, a skeptic who explains what people thought they saw -- when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OUT OF THE BLUE", COURTESY JAMES FOX)
NARRATOR: In the summer of 1947, numerous UFOs were spotted by local authorities, airline pilots and civilians worldwide. By July, these sightings made headlines and newspapers all across the United States, culminating on the 8th of July with the alleged recovery of a crashed disk on a ranch near Roswell, New Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Don Schmitt and Thomas Carey remain with us.
Joining us now in Los Angeles, Bill Nye, the famed science guy, scientist, engineer, bestselling author and Emmy-winning television personality. He's the member of the Skeptics Society and a fellow with the Committee of Skeptical Inquiry.
And back at New Mexico, at Building 84 in Roswell, Frankie Rowe. Her father was a fireman in Roswell and he went out on a fire call in 1947, returned home and reported to his family that in addition to a crashed saucer, he saw two full body bags and one living little person about the size of a small 10-year-old.
Essentially, Frankie, your father was telling you he saw an alien, right?
FRANKIE ROWE, SAYS ALIEN "SPOKE" TO DAD: Yes. That's correct. KING: What did he say? What did he make of it?
ROWE: He said that they tried to help it, and that the little person told them that there was nothing that they could do to help him.
KING: He spoke in English?
ROWE: He did not talk to them in words. He talked to them in their head. But they all understood and heard the same thing at the same time.
KING: Did he go a little berserk over this? Did he try to tell other officials? Did he try to go to the press?
ROWE: No. He didn't do anything other than he was out there to do his job. And that was all. And before they could actually do anything there at the crash site itself, the military came and escorted them off of the location.
KING: Bill, you're not saying these people are lying, are you? Or are you? Her father lied?
BILL NYE, "THE SCIENCE GUY', SAYS UFO WAS WEATHER BALLOON: I'm saying that their memory is not especially accurate.
KING: But, I mean, these are three different people we've had here tonight.
NYE: Well, here's what it is, Larry. Here's what it is. It was a program called the Skyhook weather balloon," and it was absolutely a secret. It was a U.S. military secret.
The Skyhook balloon was to be part of a system, or a constellation of balloons off the east coast of the former Soviet Union, fitted with microphones -- this sounds extraordinary, and it was -- fitted with microphones that would listen for distinctive sounds associated with Soviet nuclear tests.
NYE: Spying -- conventional regular spying.
KING: So, these people who saw things, the thing that landed.
NYE: They saw a thing, yes, a huge thing. It was the Skyhook weather balloon being tested at the Alamogordo Air Force or U.S. Army Air Force base before the Air Force, the Department of the Air Force was created, just a few months before that.
KING: What about Frankie and her father?
NYE: Well, so, I think that when you have somebody recalling events from 61 years ago, it's like the game telephone you play with people, where you tell a story and you whisper it around the room. These things get embellished. There's a certain comedy show that has a whole bit about writers' embellishment. KING: Don't you...
NYE: So -- hold on, just hang on a second. So, I want everybody to evaluate this business about the Skyhook weather balloon. They called it a weather balloon, but it was not. It was a top-secret balloon to spy in a conventional way just before the U-2 airplane, before the SR- 71, before Corona, before spy satellite, any of that stuff; this was the state of the art.
KING: All right.
NYE: Now, these balloons are very hard to control at high altitude and had crashed.
KING: Don Schmitt, how do you respond to that?
SCHMITT: Well, first much all, there's a problem with the timeline. For anybody who has flown over the debris field location, that material was out there for days before it was even reported. If we were looking for anything top secret, why was it that until the rancher who actually reported it, that nobody ventured out there to investigate this?
The point is, from that high desert location, once airborne, you can see for 100 miles. They weren't looking for anything because we weren't missing anything. And if we weren't missing anything, I guess the conclusion would be, then, it wasn't ours.
NYE: I think the exception to this idea that your claim that nobody was looking for it, are you sure nobody was looking for it or is it because it was a secret?
SCHMITT: Absolutely, because it was out there for days. It was out there for days.
NYE: So, I'll give you an example. Larry, I'll give you an example. My mother, not somebody I've heard of, my mother was in the U.S. Navy. She was recruited to work on the Enigma code. She had security clearance. She was given clearance in 1942.
They were declassified in 1992, fifty years later. In 50 years, people die. People forget stuff. So, if you try to cover something up for 50 years, or 61 years, facts are lost. When he claims there was nobody looking for it, I'm skeptical.
KING: Wait a minute (ph), Bill. Why doesn't the government then, this being a fact, this being many years later, we're friends with Russia, there's no Soviet Union, we're not spying, release it, show us, tell us the story? Why not?
NYE: Well, if you talk to conventional skeptics, they say they did release it -- Skyhook weather balloon. There's a very good picture of the Skyhook balloon on the ship. You get this sense of a size of it. There's another nice picture of the Skyhook balloon with people in the foreground. These things are enormous.
KING: Tom, how do you respond?
CAREY: I think Mr. Nye is talking about Project Mogul, the Air Force project to detect the first Soviet nuclear blast expected in those days. The problem with his analysis is that the balloons themselves are still made out of rubber, and tin foil, the targets were tin foil. Any six-year-old, when these things come on land -- they lose the air and they land on the ground -- any six-year-old can identify rubber, tin foil and balsa wood sticks; irregardless of how top secret the project was, the constituent elements of the project were mundane.
KING: We'll come right back. If UFOs and space aliens have come here, why won't the government admit? Some answers ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OUT OF THE BLUE")
FEMALE NARRATOR: In 1966, congressional hearings were held with Secretary of Defense Harold Brown, and scientific adviser of Project Blue Book, Dr. J. Allen Hynek.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the Air Force hiding in this investigation?
HAROLD BROWN, THEN U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, we have not been hiding anything. The investigation has been made public. The explanations of those where there is a clear explanation have been made public. The hearing this morning was public for just that reason.
DR. J. ALLEN HYNEK, ADVISER, PROJECT BLUE BOOK: None of the evidence that I have examined would indicate any proof at all that we are being visited by extraterrestrials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Is the U.S. government hiding knowledge of UFOs? That's our quick question. Just go to us at CNN.com/LarryKing and tell us what you think.
Our panel remains. Frankie, did you ever doubt your father at all?
ROWE: Absolutely not. What he told us, he told us exactly what he saw. Weather balloons don't talk. This little person communicated they'd been watching us for a long time. And he said they're not here to hurt us, not to be afraid.
KING: Bill, are you open to the possibility you might be wrong?
NYE: Oh, yes. But let's examine the evidence. Let's start with the picture of the guy on the gurney, in the body bag. The person or the thing in the body bag is not a little person. That's the full length of a conventional gurney. Might even be eight feet long. So it might not be a little person in a body bag at all. This, to me, is not evidence that we have been visited by aliens. Let's also look at the box that was lifted off the flying saucer, you had earlier in the show.
Sorry, it's so extraordinary. In the time that these pictures were created, the technology of faking photos, that to me is not a very convincing photo. Look at the words "Viking Project." They're not keystone, they're not -- they don't have a vanishing point that's accurate.
The straps that go over it don't look especially good. And that thing on the truck doesn't look like a flying saucer of extraterrestrial origin to me. It looks like ...
KING: Well, it might be to me.
NYE: Well, it looks like, if I may, an artist's rendering. So the quality of this evidence -- this is where I encourage everybody, and I'm not going to convince your guests and the authors of these books. Their minds are made up, they're jamming, it's all good for them.
But to the conventional viewer, just look at these pictures, really examine the evidence, and I think you'll see that it's not very compelling. These pictures are not enough for me.
And furthermore, the government claims it had this weather balloon thing -- spy balloon, and it did crash, and it was a secret, and they swept it up. Now this guy, Steve Fossett, he disappeared in a similar balloon last year, right? Haven't found the guy.
KING: Right. Still haven't found him.
NYE: Yes, because when things crash in this kind of area, it's rugged and they're hard to find. These balloons are big and thin.
KING: Don ...
SCHMITT: Please, please, you've never been out there. Like I said, once you are airborne in a small plane, you can see for 100 miles. And ...
NYE: So you want us to take your word for it? OK.
SCHMITT: I defy anyone to suggest that anybody was looking for this, because why would the base commander, Colonel William Blanchard, not dispatch a couple of grunts as far as just to go look at it, but rather the heads of both departments of intelligence?
NYE: Well, you'd want grunts with security clearance, right? You wouldn't want ...
SCHMITT: Well, it was the head of an intelligence department as well as the head of this counterintelligence department, because they couldn't identify the materials. As Tom already explained, it was the project that was top secret. NYE: So let me ask you, so if we discovered these materials -- if the Air Force discovered these materials, would these materials be the kind of thing that you could apply to future technologies? Would the Air Force then be able to create more sophisticated aircraft and spacecraft as a result of finding these materials?
SCHMITT: Well, I would suggest, why the materials went to foreign technology division, T2 (ph) at that time, at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
NYE: T2? So what came of it? I'll give you an example. Here's a watch ...
KING: Oh, let him finish.
NYE: Well, here's a watch that runs on solar power, OK? You never wind it. Sunlight lights it up and charges the battery, runs for seven years -- seven years' worth under guarantee, runs every day, you never wind it.
If I gave this watch to, let us say, the people who built the pyramids, let's say, would they be able to recreate this watch? I don't think so. In the last 5,000 years, we have discovered quantum physics and the field of ...
KING: So what's your point?
NYE: Well, that if you were given material from future civilizations far in advance of ours, you would not be able to make a derivative material.
KING: Well, you're assuming that the visitors are far advanced.
NYE: Well, you've got to figure if they had a spacecraft that flew around and crashed here and was -- I admit, was as primitive as the one in the picture ...
KING: The conventional question, Thomas, is, why New Mexico? Why they don't they come to Washington?
NYE: New York, yes.
KING: New York, Los Angeles. Why Casper, Wyoming?
NYE: Alamogordo, New Mexico, yes.
CAREY: Well, back in '47, New Mexico was the place to go. We had the atomic bomb development here in New Mexico, the missile tests from captured German rocketry, the Project Mogul balloon tests.
So in 1947 there is no doubt that if I'm coming in from another galaxy or something like that, New Mexico would be a pretty place to go. But as far as today, I think UFOs -- we anthropomorphize when we think about, geez, why don't they land in a large city so everybody could see them?
Maybe they don't think like us. We don't know. We just don't ...
KING: Let me get a break. Frankie Rowe, thank you very much. We're going to be joined by an astronaut, the sixth man to walk on the Moon. And we'll talk about what's in those top secret Roswell files. An astronaut who has seen them tells us ahead on LARRY KING LIVE.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have a military operation going on at Groom Lake, highly classified and highly important to U.S. security.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Satellite photos of the base show the world's longest runway. The length is about 30,000 feet, almost six miles. Space shuttles could be landed at either end simultaneously, rolled to a halt without brakes or parachutes and still be separated by a mile.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: We are now joined by distinguished American in West Palm Beach Dr. Edgar Mitchell, the Apollo XIV astronaut, sixth man to walk on the moon, many of the Roswell witnesses told Dr. Mitchell their accounts which he says were later verified by a contact at the Pentagon. What do you believe, Dr. Mitchell?
DR. EDGAR MITCHELL, APOLLO ASTRONAUT: Well, I can say, Larry, I have no firsthand experience but all of my experience comes from what I call the old timers that at some point in their - before they passed on, and these folks are all gone now, and because I was who I was, because I lived in the area, I grew up in the area, and because I was an astronaut, some of them wanted to get it off their chest before they passed on and I happened to be selected to hear their story.
And all of them as I heard some of the earlier testimony, all of them were under very severe oaths and fear and penalty for talking but they did want to talk and it was ...
KING: What do you think, Dr. Mitchell, what do you think of Bill Nye's assessment when it comes to what happened, that this was a spy balloon.
MITCHELL: I'm sorry, Bill Nye -- he was saying everybody is colored by their beliefs and not looking at the evidence. I'm sorry, he's not either. And I think he's totally wrong ...
NYE: So, let me ask you ...
KING: Hold on, don't interrupt.
Go ahead, Dr. Mitchell. I'm sorry. MITCHELL: Well, I eventually went to the Pentagon and asked for a meeting with the Intelligence Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff which I got with another naval officer who had had many similar experience and we told our story and this gentleman, a vice admiral, said to us, well, I don't know about that but I'm going to find out. And called a few weeks later and said he had found the source of the black budget funding for this project and that he was going to subsequently investigate because if it was real he should know about it, as a matter of fact, he should be in charge, those were his words.
And so we did get calls from some time later and a report much later than that that he had found the people responsible for the cover-up and for the people who were in the know and were told, I'm sorry, admiral, you do not have need to know here and so, goodbye.
KING: All right, Bill.
NYE: So, what are you saying? First of all, did you interview these people on their death bed or under oath? Let the viewer - I'm not going to change your mind. So that's for Ed, go for that.
MITCHELL: They sought me out.
KING: They sought him out.
NYE: But they were not on their deathbed. A deathbed declaration is quite a different thing from seeking you out and telling a story. You're not going to convince me.
MITCHELL: I am not interested in arguing with you. I'm telling my story. If you want to shut up and hear it, I'll be glad to talk. Otherwise, no.
NYE: I'm claiming that you haven't made a claim about aliens. You made a claim about a cover-up, which I'm right there with you and you made a claim about an admiral that was not given clearance to read it. I'm right there with you on that. But go ahead about the aliens.
MITCHELL: I happened to have lived in the area and the - and I grew up the area and my family had farming and ranch holdings and farm machinery holdings. We knew many of the people, including the ranch where this was discovered and in spite of all of the security oaths, etc, the talk in the community was, of what it was, that it was an alien craft and that survived all of the other stories and all of the other oaths and so forth. It was there for a long time. I happened to have lived there.
As a matter of fact, Robert Goddard, the father of American rocketry, his farm was right down the road from ours and I walked past his home every day going there. So I feel fairly well-informed on all of this and like some of your earlier witnesses, Larry, whose fathers talked to them, whose parents talked to them, they were involved, we heard the same thing. We knew it, it was not really covered up and so these stories did get out even though the day after the official announcement had come out in the "Roswell Record" newspaper and was repeated the next day, there was a lot of snickering and laughing going on about what in the world is going on here.
KING: Dr. Mitchell, we're going to do more on this and I want to invite you back for a longer period of time. You're a distinguished American and we appreciate you appearing with us.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Larry.
KING: Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
Do you believe the government lies about UFO activity? Our next guest, a career military man, says it does. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're coming this way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not science fiction, this is science fact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It clearly had a shape to it. Had it been a big shape there ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is nothing to hide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is nothing to hide at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with our panel. And we're now joined in Roswell, New Mexico by Lieutenant Colonel Wayne Mattson, United States Air Force, Retired. A military historian, he spent 32 years in the military, a majority of which he spent in research and testing for the Air Force.
Based on his experience, Matthew believes that the military and government constantly lie about UFO activity and Roswell is no exception. Why, Colonel Mattson, do they lie?
LT. COL. WAYNE MATTSON, USAF (RET): Why? Because the Air Force is charged with keeping the skies clear of unwanted craft and if you can't stop one of these UFOs, you're not doing your job. So therefore they don't exist.
KING: They lie to cover themselves.
KING: The cover their, what, so to speak.
MATTSON: Absolutely. They come out and say they are no threat to our security. Perhaps they're not. But if they say they don't exist, they don't have to worry about anything like that.
KING: Do you believe there are UFOs? MATTSON: Since I have seen things in flight, the answer is most definitely yes.
KING: Seen, like what?
MATTSON: Seeing a large triangular craft in the skies over Thailand. Seeing a large disc-shaped craft which was following our airplane. It was also tracked by radar and then we got a visual on it and watched this large round object translate from a disk shape -- well, excuse me, from a -- the size of a full Moon to a disc shape and accelerate out of sight in a matter of seconds.
KING: What, Bill Nye, could change your mind? I mean, you're not saying that Wayne Mattson is nuts?
NYE: Oh, no, no, no. These people believe, absolutely. But let's take another example that would change my mind. There are hundreds of millions of cell phones in the United States that have cameras. There are millions and millions more in the world that have cameras.
Every week there are millions and millions, every month there are billions of pictures taken. Can I get one, one picture of one alien spacecraft? Now are these guys saying that they found a piece of this spacecraft material and it's hidden? Are they saying that they have found a piece of this spacecraft material and they lost it?
It's quite extraordinary. This is a piece of material that would change the course of human history and it's gone. They have photographs that would change the course of human history and they're hidden. I'm very skeptical. I encourage everybody to be skeptical. You're not going to change these guys' minds, they're into this.
KING: I want Thomas Carey to respond, but first, Colonel Mattson, how would respond to that?
MATTSON: There are a lot of picture taken, and there are probably a lot of pictures in hidden archives. Project Blue Book was, in my opinion, merely a P.R. cover-up. Most of the good stuff went somewhere else, to one of the air intelligence squadrons, and was buried deeply under cover.
NYE: So is that a convincing photo to you? Does that look like a real alien spacecraft? Widen it out and put the -- does that look like an alien spacecraft?
KING: I don't know what it looks like. Don't look like an airplane.
NYE: It doesn't convince me.
KING: Don't look like a balloon.
NYE: Well, it looks not that unlike a flying disc that you play Ultimate Frisbee with, with stuff attached to it.
KING: Our guests cannot see this, so ...
NYE: Oh, I'm sorry.
KING: ... we're referring to something ...
NYE: And this doesn't work like -- sorry, this doesn't convince in any way that there was something in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947 that was hidden by the government that was anything but a secret spy balloon.
KING: Thomas Carey, what could clear this up? What action ...
NYE: To call these evidence is so wrong.
KING: I'm asking him.
KING: Thomas, what could clear this up?
CAREY: Larry, I don't know that any thing could clear it up for your guest, Mr. Nye, but for the reasonable mind that is open, testimony -- overwhelming testimony will clear it up. But I think for Mr. Nye, an unequivocal piece of the ship that crashed in 1947 might do the trick. I'm not sure that it would. He might say that it was a Hollywood trick or something like that.
But I think a piece of physical evidence, if I could go that far, should clear it up for Mr. Nye. And I can report to your audience that we are working on obtaining physical evidence as we speak.
KING: And we'll take a break and come back with our remaining moments. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAT FLANNERY, ARCHAEOLOGIST, ROSWELL FIELD OFFICE, BLM: All right, Larry. My name is Pat and We're about 75 miles or so from Roswell, New Mexico. We'll be looking at the three field (ph) area where rancher Max Brasell (ph) found pieces of this craft scattered over a pretty wide area.
Here we are. This is called the debris field. An alien ship coming from the northwest comes right over this rise to this very location. Came right through here and somewhere it hit the ground and cut a V shape and then went airborne again but it left a debris field from the point say here, to as much as three quarters of a mile into the distance going in the southeast direction.
Max Brasell, a couple of miles from here, maybe three or four miles from here along this path, trajectory, said that he found some - a couple of alien bodies. A couple of aliens, dead I guess, at that location. They had been there for two days. And the ship continued on and wherever that ship was found, the craft was, then there were more bodies found.
That's the way I understand it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. Lieutenant Colonel Mattson, what about the Skyhook balloon. Have you investigated that story?
MATTSON: Yes, I have looked at many of the Skyhook balloon records and right about the time the Air Force came out and said, we lied, it's not a weather balloon, it was really Project Mogul, they came out with a large document, several inches thick, called "The Roswell Incident."
In it they claimed that the Mogul launch on the Fourth of June was the one responsible for the Roswell incident but in the same document they published the log of one of the technicians who was associated with the program and his entry for the 4th of June, 1947 indicated no balloon launch due to bad weather.
Now there was a balloon launched on the 5th of the June and the records show that was recovered 25 miles east of Roswell. So the 4th of June the Air Force was wrong. The 5th of June they had recovered the balloon itself.
NYE: Is it possible for them to change that guy's record? Isn't it a possible thing to recover something else?
Compare the probability of changing a single document with the probability that we have been visited by entities that would change the course of human history and nobody noticed.
KING: Do you, Bill ...
NYE: Want to see one? Bring it on.
KING: Don't you want to be wrong?
NYE: Larry, on Mars right now there is a Phoenix Lander that has found water ice.
NYE: We may keep digging, literally in this case and find a logical step to take to look for the next warmest water and find, it is not beyond reason, you find, not on this mission but subsequent missions, evidence of life on Mars at one time, fossil evidence. That would change the world. That would be extraordinary.
KING: Before we close it out, we have a King Cam. We bless (ph) the camera and watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDY JAMES, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL UFO MUSEUM: My name is Sandy. I'm Deputy Director of the International UFO Museum. I have one question that I would like to have answered. With the Roswell incident, is there one thing that any of you on the panel are skeptical about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: One thing? Bill's got many, many things.
Are you skeptical, Colonel Mattson about anything?
MATTSON: No sir, I am not.
KING: Are you skeptical, Thomas Carey, about anything?
CAREY: For sure. When we interview witnesses not everyone is telling the truth, and Don and I we've -- we are able to pick up on that fairly quickly because of our experience in interviewing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of witnesses. So, not every witness is bona fide.
KING: Bill, as I repeat again, wouldn't you like to be wrong?
NYE: Kind of.
KING: Just kind of?
NYE: Yes, because the Roswell thing --
KING: You're a scientist --
NYE: Yes, yes -- but, just bear in mind that this was the inception of the CIA, and we had all sorts of covert operations that, with all due respect, they kind of messed up for several decades. And this was one that they really did cover up. It was a thing they tried to do; they tried to build a spy balloon before spacecraft. And it didn't work so well, and it crashed, and it was a secret. And that is a pretty satisfactory explanation for me. I feel pretty good about that. I would love to find evidence ...
KING: Thank you all very much. We're out of time.
Sorry, we lost the satellite for Don Schmitt.
Thomas Carey, Bill Nye, Lieutenant Colonel Wayne Mattson and guests earlier.http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0807/04/lkl.01.html